Thamd, li, al-ijr, Gods She-camel, Arabia and the Arabs by Robert Hoyland, Professor of Late Antique and Early Islamic Middle Eastern History at New York Universitys Institute for the Study of the Ancient World, pg 68. They didnt bluntly reject Salih like the Aad did to Hud. I guess it can be said that the Nabataeans can be considered one of the nations succeeding the people of Thamud. So what we see are Hellenistic structures built by Midianites taken over from the Thamud. The shout, which is an extremely loud sound, might have caused the earthquake, according to certain scholars. 12. One Who missed the Friday Prayer should pray Zuhr: Moving the Finger in Tashahhud : Fatwa Collection_ 40 short hadiths filled with wisdom. Since I dont have my own blog currently, I will post it here, in case it helps anyone. Nabateans replaced them and built on them/around them It is estimated by some historians that Moses (s) lived around the 16th century BCE. If not, then why do we need to find the remains of Thamud? Several broken columns in the ruins of Wadi Ramm have been interpreted as the lofty pillars associated with Iram in the Quran. Nabateans built over them means in general sense; it does not mean that each and every building was replaced by the Nabateans. Meaning ibn kathir thought these tombs were built by thamud as well but got it wrong, I agree also Im of the opion the hadith witch says dont enter the dwellings I think the prophet said dont enter the lands not houses because there are only 4 hadith witch mention that and 3 of them doesnt have the arabic word for dwelling there any way thats why dwelling is in brackets also the one hadith what does mention dwelling in arabic misken can mean land any way because it is used in the quran and there are some places it is translated as dwelling places not literally houses so Im of the opion the prophet was saying dont enter the land and even if it did mean houses it could be that there were a few bricks in the valley plain there and that is what he meant because if it was the same area then that is why some people think the prophet meant the nabateans buildings jazzakkallah also in verse 40:21 out of the 8 theorys I have put down witch one do you think is the right one what does atharan mean to you jazzakkallah because if it means remains then it just means there were just a bit of large bricks broken pillars there witch just shows they were better than the Arabs jazzakkallah what could be what the prophet meant dont enter the fallen down houses what ever left of there builds like a few large bricks and broken pillars, Also those 4 hadith dont mention thamud by name in just says the land of al hijr or the people of al hijr or region of al hijr but never thamud but yes I agree with the well but there are Wells all over the region of al hijr like al ula and such also al hijr might be anywhere with a rocky area like yemon or jordan also there is a place in oman called al hijr so could be anywhere like yemon also there is a place called thamud in yemon near where ad lived near hadramawt so you see what I mean could be there, Assalam alikum I was just wondering how do we explain 28:58 witch nation is it talking about and is it talking in past or present tense because this verse sounds like its talking about thamud those buildings witch were built by nabtions. The Quran states regarding them: , And to the Thamud [We sent] their brother Salih. If the Nabateans carved out the structures on the hills and mountains of Petra and Median Saleh, as the Christians allege, then both the Quran and the Bible are in error, which I dont agree with. Expel Jews and Christians from Arabian Peninsula? Just leave her alone. Syed Suleman Nadvi discusses this in Tarikh Ard al-Quran vol.2. He said, O my people, worship Allah; you have no deity other than Him. According to the Quran, they were hit by a blast that destroyed them. 7. Though one could argue that they knew of Salih and hence Allah could hold them responsible, but this is speculation. Assalam alikum so is 89:9 present tense or past tense the altheana jabbu al sakrah bilwadi bit and you are saying that the thamud dwellings have gone destroyed after the prophets time, And Is madain al saleh wadi alQura or is wadi alqura some where else, And do you think there houses were destroyed before or after ibn kathir and could the land of thamud be petra ir yemon because there is a town called thamud in yemon, And does 27:52 mean there dwellings were destroyed or empty and could 89:9 mean there dwellings just of been caves in the prophets the outside gone fallen if you know what I mean and can. [6], Thamd is also mentioned in Classical sources. We do not take it as a science book and neither should we take it as a book of archaeology. In sura 15, there seems to be a chronological order: At first the story of Adam (as) is mentioned (26-50), then the story of Abraham (as) and Lot (as) (51-77), then the story of the people of al-Rass,i.e. These include Sunni Huwala and Achomi people, who compromise of both fully Arab and mixed Arab-Persian families. Sahih International. I believe neither are in error. From the overall area of a few miles, that particular area of a few feet had Thamudic remains. And when you strike, you strike as tyrants.Chapter 26, Verse 130. And as for Thamud, We showed them the path of truth but they preferred blindness to guidance; so the Sa`iqah of disgracing torment seized them because of what they used to earn. So youd then say that the buildings at Madain Salih were indeed originally Thamudic and then after that built upon by other nations? . Not only did they reject them, they mocked, ridiculed, and in the case of Salih (AS) they even tried to kill him. What we do know is that the Nabateans lived a nomadic life style. Also if it is in the present it makes it sound there buildings were like brand new like not destroyed etc, This is it then Im done but thank you very much for answering my questions jazzakkallah, 3. The prophet was a man of his times and of his own personal experiences, he could have attributed what he saw to the Thamud due to the fact that the Thamud lived on the exact region as these ruins. Did the Prophet try to execute a man without proof? 74], , And certainly did the companions of Thamud deny the messengers. of 'Ad and Thamud by name. Suhih Muslim _ The Book of Prayers (Kitab Al-Salat || Html Code Widget || Blogger Website Blog || At _ The story of cow. 13. And remember when He made you successors after the Aad and settled you in the land?Chapter 7, Verse 74. After the Arab conquest of Persia in the 7th century, many Arab tribes settled in different parts of Iran, notably Khurasan and Ahwaz, it is the Arab tribes of Khuzestan that have retained their identity in language and culture to the present day while other Arabs especially in Khurasan were slowly Persianised. The video (arabic): https://youtu.be/0XIPP6vsDmA. The Akkadians are the Arameans who are the Chaldeans who are the Nabateans who absorbed The Amorites. The Bible makes a claim that a particular time in history, a people who lived in in the kingdom of EdomEdomites predate the Nabateans or the current historically accepted date of the structures carved from the mountainscarved out structures in the hills and mountains. [31][32] Other Arab tribes migrated into Sudan in the 12th century and intermarried with the indigenous populations, forming the Sudanese Arabs. Badawi writes: [li] and his followers left the doomed area just before Gods punishment befell them. [14] The Thamd in question were Roman auxiliary troops, as the inscription states explicitly: For the well-being of the rulers of the whole world Marcus Aurelius Anthoninus and Lucius Aurelius Verus, who are the conquerors of the Armenians. Qur'anic accounts of Salih always follow those of Hud. I would rather think that the Thamud were more like two or three hundred years after the Aad. or, if he should, he can never take it, or take me from hence, conquer and subdue me. Allah sent a powerful windstorm to the Aad that destroyed them and left them sprawled and mangled in their homes. The Christians are claiming that the Qurans statement about Thamud carving structures in the hills and mountains is demonstrably false as the structures are built not by the Thamud but by the Nabateans, who came much later. Aben Ezra thinks that caph, the note of similitude, is wanting; and that the sense is, thou thoughtest that Mount Seir could secure thee, as they that dwell in the clefts of a rock: whose habitation [is] high; upon high rocks and mountains, such as Mount Seir was, where Esau dwelt, and his posterity after, him. It is possible that the dwelling areas are no longer visible in the last 1400 years as these are just small rooms and tombs with no space inside. The earliest abundant references for Thamud in our literary sources are in relation to the Nabataean empire a large Arab kingdom encompassing parts of modern Syria, Jordan, Saudi Arabia (including the Hejaz, the area containing Mecca and Medina) and even parts of Sinai. They could either mean that we can see the remains and consider the signs and warnings or theyre giving HISTORICAL lessons and portents for us to take note. [21], A hadith tradition preserved in the a al-Bukhr collection narrates that the Islamic prophet Muhammad called Hegra "the land of Thamud" and did not allow his troops to drink from its wells or to use its water, and to never enter its ruins "unless weeping, lest occur to you what happened to them. Thats all the Thamud had to do. Ptolemy, who lived in the second century, wrote that the "Thamuditai" tribe inhabited the Red Sea coastline, and that the "Thamoudenoi" tribe lived in inland northwestern Arabiaeither or both may be references to the Thamdwhile his contemporary Uranius believed that the Thamd neighbored the Nabateans. And when they did that, Allahs wrath came on them. It makes it specific but is not related to time. - - * - But certainly, there is some potential that something like this may have happened. Both groups of people were located on the Arabian Peninsula. So Ad lives in a mountainous country with lush valleys; and they made altars on the mountains. Theres no real reason to mention them lastly, except they came after al-Rass and they are also included in this chronological order as well. According to Arab tradition, the Adnanites are called Arabised because it is believed that Ishmael Spoke Aramaic and Egyptian then learnt Arabic from a Qahtanite Yemeni woman that he married. Hence, they had become very rich. However, there survived long after that, people who still called themselves Thamd. And We saved those who believed and had Taqwa. So Allah sent a camel with the simple command: Dont harm her. Yusuf Ali. Assalamualaikum what do u think of the carbon dating and the presence of wells? But the fact that they spitefully killed an animal that had done them no harm and for no good reason is proof and a sign of their evil. Then do you see any remains?Chapter 69, Verses 6 8. What do we intend to get out of the statement that they were more in number and strength in what they left behind. But I digress. Answer (1 of 7): Yes They were called the people of Aad and they were ancient arabs. And so, when Our command was fulfilled, by Our mercy We saved li and his fellow believers from the disgrace of that day. Arab genealogical tradition. Here is the summary of his opinion: ( ) which only proves that al-Hijr was also the land of the Thamud which is not a problem. Tribes originating in the Arabian Peninsula. You would only make my loss greater. Guiding Romantic Desire: Wisdom in the Sexual Ethics of Islam, Custodianship of the Right Hand: Concubinage, Rape, and Sexual Slavery in Islam. Look, it doesnt matter if you warn us or dont warn us, were not going to listen to you. After the destruction of Ad, Thamud succeeded them in power and grandeur. But given the possibility that these ruins could have once been created, either completely or partially, by the Thamud and taken later by the Edomites in Petra and then the Nabateans, who inscribed graffiti on themtheir inscriptions are exactly thator even carved out recesses inside of them, there isnt an unsurmountable problem. Dont ever think youre indespensible. http://saudi-archaeology.com/sites/madain-saleh/. Part 1_ The story of Musa. When Salih began to preach monotheism, the Thamud demanded that he prove his prophethood by bringing forth a pregnant camel from solid rock. The Aad before them were pretty decent architects and built some fairly magnificent castles. But despite all of this advice, the Aad rejected their brother Hud. (29:38) If they turn away, then say, I warn you of a lightning-bolt like the lightning-bolt of Ad and of Thamud. Do you construct on every elevation a sign amusing yourselves? Are women deficient in intelligence in Islam? - _ taf . Hence, they didnt engage in long, drawn out debates with Hud. After giving birth, the camel drank all the water from a well every two days and then produced enormous amounts of milk for the people. Regardless, the thamud tribes structures remained for people to see according to Quran. In Islamic prophetic history, the Prophet Salih (s) was sent to the first tribe of Thamud before the coming of Moses (s), since one of the believers warned Pharaoh about what happened to them. Nothing but solid rock underlies the rest of the facades. The arguments against the Quran and Hadith are as follows: Al-Hijr Archaeological Site (Madin Slih) UNESCO World Heritage Centre. Compared to modern civilizations of this time that we live in, these were still archaic and that is just sign of the times but compared to those who came after them in the lands, these destroyed civilizations were e definitely stronger. al-Hijr, the second most important centre of the Nabataean empire, is the title of the 15th chapter of the Quran. Dealing with faith-related doubts in Islam. [11] An important exception is a temple at al-Ruwfa in northwestern Saudi Arabia, built by the Thamd themselves in the 160s CE. A similar narrative can be found in Jeremiah 49:16 Secondly, 15:81 makes it clear that they denied a Messenger sent to them and were destroyed as a consequence. We do not believe in the Bible the way it is today. The Kingdom of Thamud was the first existing kingdom on the Arabian peninsula, according to Assyrian and Roman sources. Thus, we can say that perhaps this ones were the Nabataeans. They also fell to idol-worshipping. Arabian tradition holds that the Thamud kingdom was destroyed by God. 2. Allah sent the Prophet Hud to give the Aad the message of Islam. They were able to build great structures and buildings, They had children to carry on their progeny. [18] According to the Quran, the Thamud were the successors of a previous nation called the d, who had also been destroyed for their sins. He replaced the people of the Flood with the Aad and then replaced the Aad with the Thamud. It describes what they used to do i.e. 3 The pride of your heart has deceived you, The tribes of 'Ad and Thamud were ancient people who existed on the Arabian Peninsula many centuries ago and were recipients of the Prophets Hud and Salih, respectively. According to Saudi-archeology website, an academic website aimed at archiving the rock images and providing archeological information on them, the structure may have been used for holding sacred feasts. We have a good perspective of the size of these supposed tombs in this picture, as the faade has been destroyed. The following are four verses from Obadiah: 1 The vision of Obadiah. The most striking thing about the Thamud was the huge buildings and structures they built into the sides of mountains. Routledge. They used to carve in the past and their present structure is not described in this Ayah. their country was called Arabia Petraea, the rocky; and their metropolis Petra, the rock: Jerom says that they that inhabited the southern part of the country and dwelt in caves cut out of the rock, to screen them from the heat of the sun: or, thou that dwellest in the circumferences of the rock F16; round about it, on the top of it, in a tower built there, as Kimchi and Ben Melech. [28] A large Arab migration to Mesopotamia followed the Muslim conquest of Mesopotamia in 634, which saw an increase in the culture and ideals of the Bedouins in the region. It seems we gonna have some proper analysis on this case, and Allah (as) knows best! These people incurred the wrath of God and were destroyed. This is the she-camel of Allah [sent] to you as a sign. Rather, it tells us to look at the region in which Thamud had existed as well as the many generations after them. Abul Ala Maududi. Here our discussion lies around the location of the thamud people and the houses/tombs they carved out of the stones and mountains. As for objection number one, as far as my research has shown, the only reason that the carved-out structures are considered tombs is due to various rectangular carved out niches inside them where the dead bodies were to be placed. Good reply Adeel. [13] Adnanites are believed to be the descendants of Ishmael through Adnan but the traditional Adnanite lineage doesn't match the biblical line exactly. He who had faith said (to Pharaoh and his company): O my people, I fear for you the likes of the day of the confederates, the likes of the fate of the people of Noah, Ad, and Thamud and those after them. After the destruction of the Ad, the tribe of Thamud succeeded them in power and glory. This structure is not only large enough to house several individuals, but contains benches which suggests that it served some social function, hence it can qualify to be called a place of dwelling. Al-ijr is now a vast plain, interspersed with hills into which what looks from the outside like houses or tombs have been carved. 4. "Genetic Evidence for the Expansion of Arabian Tribes into the Southern Levant and North Africa", "Hidden History, Secret Present: The Origins and Status of African Palestinians", "Symbolism on the Syrian Standing Caliph Copper Coins", "A Detailed Account of the History of Arabs Before Islam", " ", " - Abd al-Fatt Miqlad Ghunaym, - Google", " - Thmir Abd al-asan mir - Google", "204 - - - ", http://islamport.com/w/nsb/Web/489/27.htm, The dwelling places and wanderings of the Arabian tribes, by Heinrich Ferdinand Wstenfeld, in German, https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Tribes_of_Arabia&oldid=1137459459, Wikipedia articles incorporating a citation from the 1911 Encyclopaedia Britannica with Wikisource reference, Short description is different from Wikidata, Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License 3.0, This page was last edited on 4 February 2023, at 19:44. We dont have remains of Ad, do we? They were 6 meters tall! My people, this camel belongs to God, a sign for you, so leave it to pasture on God's earth and do not harm it, or you will soon be punished." [7] Today, all these areas are located in the Arab world with the exception of Khuzestan. When some one has a keen desire to understand logically or has questions, there is nothing wrong I think. Allah says: `Say, O Muhammad, to these idolators who disbelieve in the message of truth that you have brought: If you turn away from that which I have brought to you from Allah, then I warn you of the punishment of Allah like the . This generally means that despite very weak appearance now they one were very well established from the remanats. They were more sophisticated than the Aad. It doesnt speak about being touched or untouched. 1. So leave her to eat within Allahs land and do not touch her with harm, lest there seize you a painful punishment. The Edomites were proud of their wealth and riches, which they had by robberies amassed together; and of their military skill and courage, and of their friends and allies; and especially of their fortresses and fastnesses, both natural and artificial; and therefore thought themselves secure, and that no enemy could come at them to hurt them, and this deceived them: thou that dwellest in the clefts of the rock; http://www.imgrum.org/media/1483126817820752683_724804649 Although, implausible, but not impossible. By declining the noun Thamud or not, it means the region or the tribe. The facades vary in height and in the richness of their decorations. Compounding the confusion is the fact that the tribal name Thamud is applied today to a broad section of different peoples throughout history, not only to those mentioned in the Quran. Omissions? The tribes of Ad and Thamud were ancient people who existed on the Arabian Peninsula many centuries ago and were recipients of the Prophets Hud and Salih, respectively. Over time, some say nine generations, these people developed a society that was very powerful, wealthy, and influential. Like some of the tombs have window openings and some of the niches are not much more wide than a hand, which hardly can serve as a resting place for a human body. They may have later acquired Hellenistic techniques and applied them on their structures. Seriously? Sargon defeated these tribes, according to his Annals, and had them forcibly deported to Samaria. The Quran does not make any claim about the historicity of specific sites, but rather enjoins the believers to reflect upon the many ruins of idolatrous societies throughout Arabia as a lesson in the futility of disobedience to Allah. The calamity must have been fairly extensive in area and intense in the terror it inspired for it is described as a single mighty blast, the sort of terror inspiring noise which accompanies all big earthquakes.. 14. Its in their records, that we find out first mention of Thamud. Having failed to save his people, Salih warned that they would be destroyed after three days. On this Wikipedia the language links are at the top of the page across from the article title. "[22] The stone constructions of Hegra are actually mostly from the Nabataean period, especially the first century CE. 9. Saudi Arabia, in terms of archaeology, is really untouched. Having similar names doesnt mean much Assalamualaikum thnx for the link. However, that does not solve the dilemma of who carved out the hills and mountains in Petra because the Edomites existed prior to the Nabateans, who according to the Christians were the ones who carved out the mountains and hills of Petra and Madian Saleh in 1st or 2nd century B.C. And perhaps, using the knowledge, culture, and technology from the Aad, they established a new society. The above article contained links to images which do not show up in here after I copied and pasted them from my ms word. Ruins of Aad and Thamood existed at time of Prophet sallallaahu alayhi wa sallam Assalaamu alaykum I was wondering does verse 2938 of the Quran mean that the houses of Aad and Thamud are still standing and that we can see them If Aad were destroyed there is nothing left of Aad apart from their land so their houses have fallen down and if they were not standing in Prophet Muhammads sallallaahu . Yes both Ad and thamud left dwelling places as opposed to some other Nations mentioned in the Quran but again the reference is generic to many other Nations not mentioned in the book that came to other parts of the world etc. This shouldnt be surprising as the Quraish, and in fact most faiths, do the same thing. [2] We do not know where they went, but they carried on the practice of stone carvings in the mountains. According to the Islamic tradition, the Thamd were warned by the prophet li to worship Allh, but the Thamd stubbornly refused and as a result were anni. In addition, when the verses talk about Verily there is a sign in this, it doesnt necessarily mean that we have to see the sign i.e. The sentence, This structure is not only large enough and a couple more contained links. Thus, Nabataeans later reused the rocks and made them to graves. document.getElementById( "ak_js_1" ).setAttribute( "value", ( new Date() ).getTime() ); Quran and Hadith on Thamud and their Dwellings, The Issue of the Qurans Teaching on Islamic Monotheism. According to the Greek historian, Diodorus Siculus, the Nabateans have a law neither to sow corn nor to plant any fruit-bearing plant, nor to use wine, nor to build a house. (LogOut/ Required fields are marked *. And they used to deny Our Ayat! Before sending the punishment on them, Allah sent two prophets to these nations. Or there fallen down relics are still better than you houses now 3. or there fallen down relics show they are/were better than you 4. Witch out of these 7 does it sound more what the verses are saying or does it mean something other than these 7 Is Thamud mentioned in the Bible? 3) The tombs were in fact built by Thamud as houses and the Nabateans simply inscribed them later. Anyway, whats really important is what led to their punishment. Id hate to be the one to rain on the holy Christian parade, but this inanity has to be responded to. Based on some of the artifacts and writing, there are several civilizations at play here and they consider that the stone carvings were the work of Nabataens), Assalam alikum but mu point is it make it sound like these 2 verses mean that thamud and AD buildings were still standing tall my point is on the arabic word atharan because does this mean that this verses are saying midian al saleh are thamud because that would be wrong, Does atharan mean we have to see it or does it just mean they made marks witch we dont have to see, Walikum asalam that that Thamud did it then the edomites took over then the nabteaons but all I know is that Thamud existed before 3000 bc so 3000 bc is probably when they were destroyed then the edomites revamped them made them look new then the nabteaons did the same and I believe the tribe of ad was destroyed weather 5-8 thousand bc and I believe noahs flood was around the ending off the ice age what was between 10-13 thousand bc became the population of the world was only 1 million at 10 thousand bc and no more than 20 million people at 5000 bc what makes stuff interesting but as a side note if the quran does say that noahs people was the first to commit shirk then ad then thamud but none at the same time or between then thamud had to come before 9000 bc so that was when they would be destroyed because the gobeki tepe was built then and that was definitely pagan shirk but this is my opion but thanks, And of course ad was the descendents of noah and thamud was the descendents of ad. Modern historiography "unveiled the lack of inner coherence of this genealogical system and demonstrated that it finds insufficient matching evidence".[14]. But the buildings of the Aad are like Lego blocks compared to the Thamud. Archaeologists should do their job the way they do and in case of any finding, they can confirm whether it conflicts with the Quran or not; if it does not, then there is nothing wrong to proceed with it further but if it does, then archaeology needs to be further examined however, such an occurrence would never happen since the Quran is from God. On the first day, their skin would turn yellow; on the second day, red; and on the final day of destruction, black. Will you forbid us to worship what our fathers worshiped? In other words either the evidence no longer exists (no problem) or Thamudic dwellings in North West Arabia are yet to be discovered. Furthermore, there is also proof that they had some elements of true Islam in their faith. Mostafa Badawi, in his book Ancient Prophets of Arabiasays thatthe people ofThamdlived in the 8th century BCE in the al-Hijr region and were destroyed. [Quran 27:45]. He said, "My people, worship God. Nevertheless, a number of interesting archaeological sites still exist in Arabia that have preserved the ruins of lost civilizations, such as the Archaeological Site of Al-Hijr (Madin Slih). [26] The name is a misnomer from the nineteenth century, when such texts were discovered in areas associated with the Thamud in the Islamic tradition. The Thamud were scientists. The word Thamud appears in the Annals of the Assyrian king Sargon II (r. 722705 BCE), inscribed at Dur-Sharrukin. Therefore, the Aad were a society that sprung up from the survivors of the flood, perhaps some of the same people who rode in the Ark with Prophet Noah (AS). The story of musa (muses) a.s. _ Magic and Illusi Suhih Muslim _ Book of "End of the World", Who is Musa a.s. (Moses) ? You can find the first onehere), Thamud were before time of the Israelites they were same time as the Assyrians who they mixed with. Amorites They were often stronger than you in signs or athar left behind has been oft repeated. The Story of Adam (The First Man) _ part 1. [24] These tribes advanced in large numbers all the way to Morocco, contributing to a more extensive ethnic, genetic, cultural, and linguistic Arabization in the region. and make your nest among the stars, Therefore, the Adnanites are descendants of Abraham. (LogOut/ Think over this in detail. 4 Though you soar like the eagle However, inside most of them is only a small room about three to four square meters in size.